TTWG Meeting 2018-12-20

[nigelmegitt]

This will be the last meeting of the year, the next meeting will be on 10th January 2019.

Time

This meeting is scheduled for up to 120 minutes.
Please be ready for a prompt start at 15:03am UTC time.

Our teleconference is scheduled with reference to UTC Time, the correct time of this teleconference in your locale may change.

Check https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20181220T15&p1=1440

Thursdays 15:03am-17:00pm UTC

Joining details:

see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2016Oct/0009.html
(members-only link – if you can't see this and wish to join please contact me)

Agenda+ Assign Roles

Chairs: Nigel Megitt

Scribe: usually Nigel – open to offers!

Regrets: Thierry (@tmichel07)

Agenda+ This meeting

Prioritise discussion for this meeting and look ahead

Check-point for order of topics – I'd suggest, subject to reordering:

1. Prioritise discussion for this meeting and look ahead
2. TTML Profile Registry Actions, Pull Requests and Issues
3. TTWG Future requirements
4. Joint f2f meeting with EBU Timed Text, Feb 1 2019
5. CSS Actions Review
6. WebVTT (David Singer to Chair if present)
7. AOB – please notify of any other AOB now!

Reminder re future milestones and meetings:

December meetings:

Thursday 27th December: No meeting

Further ahead:

Thursday 3rd January: No meeting
Thursday 10th January: #11 TTWG meeting ? Hour(s)
Thursday 17th January: #12 TTWG meeting ? Hour(s)
Thursday 24th January: #13 TTWG meeting ? Hour(s)
Thursday 31st January: #14 TTWG face to face meeting, EBU, Geneva
Friday 1st February, morning: #15 TTWG joint face to face meeting with EBU Timed Text, EBU, Geneva

Activity since last meeting:

See individual agenda items for recent activity on specific products

Cross-product TTWG board: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/board/
We are still using tracker for actions unrelated to issues.
Please do not add or modify issues in tracker!

• TTWG: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/pulse
• TTWG Requirements: https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/pulse
• IMSC: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pulse
• TTML1: https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/pulse
• TTML2: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pulse
• TTML Profile Registry: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pulse
• TTML-WebVTT mapping: https://github.com/w3c/ttml-webvtt-mapping/pulse
• WebVTT: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pulse

Agenda+ TTML Profile Registry

Recent Activity

2 Pull requests merged by 2 people

Merged w3c/tt-profile-registry#48 Fix the media type in the abstract 5 days ago
Merged w3c/tt-profile-registry#47 Add reference to IMSC 1.0.1

2 Issues closed by 1 person

Closed w3c/tt-profile-registry#37 MIME type in Abstract is wrong 5 days ago
Closed w3c/tt-profile-registry#41 Update ref to IMSC 1 to point to 1.0.1

Pull requests for review (to discuss if requested)

Pull requests open for longer than that:

w3c/tt-profile-registry#50 Fix #42 and #43
w3c/tt-profile-registry#54 Reorder tables alphabetically (#51).

No issues created over the past week.

No issues or pull requests currently marked for the agenda.

Links

TTML Profile Registry issues labelled for the agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/labels/agenda :
TTML Profile Registry editor's draft: https://w3c.github.io/tt-profile-registry/
TTML Profile Registry repository: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry

Agenda+ TTWG Future Requirements

Links

TTWG Requirements repo: https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs

Recent Activity

No Issues created or closed, no pull requests merged.

Pull requests for review (to discuss if requested)

No pull requests currently open.

No issues or pull requests currently marked for the agenda.

Links

TTWG Requirements issues labelled for the agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/labels/agenda

Agenda+ Joint f2f meeting with EBU Timed Text, Jan 2019

State of planning, topics for agenda.

Wiki page: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/F2F-jan-2019

Agenda+ CSS actions review

Notes from previous discussions etc:

Response to Elika's email of 4th October at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2018Oct/0011.html

#####Do the updates to CSS Text address the requirements we put forward for presentation of subtitles and captions?

For reference, we have the following CSS issues open:

w3c/csswg-drafts#1975 [css-sizing][css-align][css-text] Aligning an aligned block of text within its container
w3c/csswg-drafts#1974 [css-inline] Allow background of an inline area to extend to before-and after-edges of the line area
w3c/csswg-drafts#1973 [css-inline][css-text-4] Allow padding to be applied at line start and end
w3c/csswg-drafts#2983 Support for shearing of lines and inline elements

Additionally the following CSS issues may be of interest:

w3c/csswg-drafts#2869 [css-fonts-4] oblique angle for synthesis in vertical text
w3c/csswg-drafts#814 [css-inline] Define the content area of inline boxes

Are CSS issues filed for all style attributes for which we believe CSS work is needed?

See also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2017Nov/0109.html

Agenda+ WebVTT

Actions

None in tracker

Links

WebVTT Wide review wiki page: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebVTT_Wide_Review

Activity

No pull requests proposed or closed this period.

5 pull requests open for longer than a week:

w3c/webvtt#439 Fix some links from the linkchecker and the broken process document link
w3c/webvtt#430 Fontsize changes
w3c/webvtt#434 Add a definition of "video viewport" and how it relates in HTML5 to object size resolution.
w3c/webvtt#438 Update CLA and License agreement
w3c/webvtt#419 Timeranges

No other (meaningful) issues created this period.

Agenda+ AOB

References

Wiki http://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText

[nigelmegitt]

Regrets from Gary.

[nigelmegitt]

Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

20 Dec 2018

Attendees

• Present
  • Nigel, Andreas, Cyril, Glenn, Pierre
• Regrets
  • Thierry
• Chair
  • Nigel
• Scribe
  • nigel

Contents

• Topics
  1. This Meeting
  2. TTML Profile Registry
  3. TTWG Future Requirements
  4. AOB
  5. AOB 2
  6. Meeting close
• Summary of Action Items
• Summary of Resolutions

---

This Meeting

Nigel: Welcome everyone to this the last TTWG call this calendar year!
... Our next will be on 10th January 2019.
... For today we have the TTWG Requirements which hopefully are nearing completion as far as the list goes.
... We can cover TTML Profile Registry also. I don't think we have anything to cover on CSS, WebVTT or the joint f2f with
... the EBU today.
... Is there any other business, or are there any specific points that we need to make sure we cover?

Andreas: I would like to discuss how we handle requirements submissions coming from non-members of the TTWG, as
... part of the Future Requirements agenda topic.

Nigel: Yes, thank you, let's do that.
... Actually I think we need to take it even one step further which is to think about our "triage" process for these requirements,
... wherever they arise from.

Andreas: What is this triage process?

Nigel: I mean how we will make an initial assessment of the requirements and if there is anything that we wish to
... make a "no" decision on quickly, and if so how we might make that decision.

Andreas: Thank you!

Glenn: I have one point on the profile document.

Nigel: OK I'll come to you when we get to the profile document agenda item.
... I have one AOB item, which is about an ITU document that needs updating, which I plan to work with the UK
... representative to submit, which will update references to our specifications.

Andreas: One more, about the scheduling of the call and the length of 2 hours.

Nigel: For AOB?

Andreas: Yes if you like, where it fits best. It should be handled when everyone is still on the call.

Nigel: OK

TTML Profile Registry

Nigel: Glenn, you wanted to raise a point here?

Glenn: Yes, just one short one. There's a pull request that's been outstanding for quite some time re
... alphabetising the table. I'm waiting for a review.

Nigel: Did you update that as discussed last week?

Glenn: Yes, and I sent you a message asking for your review.

Nigel: That's strange, I didn't see that, apologies, I don't know why.

Glenn: I sent both an email and a message on the pull request.

Nigel: That's worrying, thanks for telling me, I hope I haven't missed anything else! I will take a look at it.
... I should have noticed it on the pulse view when I made the agenda on Tuesday. Was it after then?

Glenn: It was 7 days ago, I added you as a reviewer, maybe I didn't send an explicit email.

Nigel: Ok not to worry, I will look at it, and obviously everyone can too.
... Is there any more on the profile registry than the table reordering?

Glenn: No, I have some more coming after that is applied.

TTWG Future Requirements

Nigel: Today is the last day we said we would accept new incoming requirements,
... and there has been at least one new one raised today.
... Thanks for the discussion on that, and I should say I separately, as a result of the discussion, had a separate
... conversation with Pablo who raised them, so it is possible that he will add something more today.
... The status at the moment is we have 12 open issues.
... A sub-agenda item for this, as Andreas requested, is to talk about how we respond to submitters of issues here.

Discussion about group communication with external participants removed from the public minutes

Nigel: Moving on, some points about the requirements issues.
... As has been said today is the last day for submission.
... We're expecting more detail on those that have been raised.
... This is to work towards coming to decisions about them in Geneva.
... One thing I thought would be helpful, I hope you all agree, is if we can come up with any criteria that we feel are
... minimal criteria in order to accept a requirement into our work then we should state that as soon as possible.
... This is the "triage" that I mentioned at the top of the meeting.
... One obvious criterion that has already arisen today is "requirement is already met"!
... Another perhaps more contentiously is if the requirement seems like it is too vague or untestable to specify and
... implement, that should at least make us pause and give opportunity to the requirement raiser to add more information.
... What do you think about putting some baseline "what we need to accept a requirement" statements out there?

Glenn: I think we should not go to process here and just deal with each on a case by case basis.
... So far we have not discussed any of them in any detail. I think the group can handle them in its normal fashion with
... consensus. I haven't heard any arguments on substance yet on any of the requirements yet.
... Some of them, I'm still looking for more info to get my head around what they're asking for. I think we need to
... flesh out the requirements a little more. I hope we can do that before we get to our meeting.
... Writing down criteria is I think inappropriate use of our time.

Nigel: Thanks Glenn, anyone else?

group: [silence]

Nigel: Okay it looks like we won't be doing this, but will leave it for each requirement issue to add as much relevant
... detail as possible to help the group get to consensus.
...
... Does anyone want to discuss the details of any of the requirements?

group: [silence]

Nigel: Ok then I'll move off this agenda topic.

Cyril: Sorry I was talking and just realised I was muted.
... I said earlier I was agreeing with Glenn that we don't have so many requirements and we should be able to go through
... the details of each one and come to a consensus.

Nigel: Okay, thanks for that.
... That doesn't change anything, just strengthens it if anything.

Cyril: No! [agreeing]

AOB

Nigel: I had one item of AOB and so did Andreas.
... Andreas, you wanted to mention the scheduled meeting duration?

Andreas: Yes, I don't know since then, but the meetings are always scheduled for 2 hours which blocks everyone's
... agenda for 2 hours. Usually we have 1 hour maximum or sometimes people ask to leave after 1 hour so I would like
... to hear from others if they would agree to reduce the scheduled time to 1 hour and extend it if we need more time.

Cyril: Agree with you!

Nigel: I'm happy to make it 1 hour except by exception.

Cyril: Yes, and make it the 2nd hour if possible.

Nigel: That may be more contentious, I'm happy to take views and do either.

Andreas: It would be fine for me.

Pierre: I'm happy either way, I've built this early call in my schedule.

Glenn: I'm neutral. I may be spending more time in GMT+8 in which case the 2nd hour is worse than the first.

Nigel: Okay we have 2 members on GMT-8 now, one on GMT, one on GMT+1 and one who may move to GMT+8.

Cyril: I suggest we start with the second hour and when Glenn moves to GMT+8 then we can move back to the first
... hour if it is really a burden.

Glenn: That's fine with me.

Nigel: OK I think we have consensus.

Cyril: One way to make the meetings more efficient would be to make the Chair and the scribe different people.
... If we scribe more for you.

Nigel: That would be very welcome.

Cyril: I will volunteer to start doing this in January. I could not do it at the current time, but an hour later is fine.

Nigel: Thanks for that.

Cyril: It's not going to be as perfectly scribed as you do!

Nigel: Now you're just being nice to me.
... The consensus we have is to move to 1600GMT from January, and set the meeting duration to 1 hour, and for
... Cyril to begin scribing, and I sense that it would be good to rotate the scribe and have everyone take a turn from time
... to time.

AOB 2

Nigel: One other item of AOB is that I've been made aware of an ITU document, ITU-R BT.2342-1,
... which I can't unfortunately provide a link to because although it was agreed in October it is not yet published.
... This document is called "Production, emission and exchange of closed captions for all worldwide language character sets (latin and non-latin) "
... It mentions ARIB-TTML, SMPTE-TT, EBU-TT and IMSC 1.
... I plan to draft a submission to come from UK which updates the W3C references to the ones we just published in
... November, and I'm told it's likely to be accepted.
... I see that it mentions IMSC and also points to a TTML ED link on Mercurial. It's really out of date.

Pierre: Are you asking for help to write that submission, or do you think W3C should or are you encouraging other
... national bodies to submit something?

Nigel: Multiple questions there!
... First, I think I can draft this myself, I was providing information here rather than asking for assistance.
... The plan is to submit it via the UK's national body.
... However I would welcome any other contributions, and indeed if anyone wants to encourage their national body to
... support the submission I'm sure that would be fine.
... I don't know who here has engagement with their national body at the moment so that's a bit tricky to navigate.

Pierre: How critical is it to modify this document?

Nigel: I think it's important that ITU doesn't have a current version of a document that is significantly out of date because
... you don't know who might read it. I don't think it's huge urgency - according to the current plan if I draft the

Nigel: submission in January or February then it will be reviewed in an April ITU meeting which coincidentally happens to be
... hosted at the BBC - I assume this is a UK meeting.
... So we're looking at getting the dates updated in the first half of 2019.
... This is ITU-R Working Party 6B, document ITU-R BT.2342-1.

Pierre: https://www.itu.int/pub/R-REP-BT.2342-1-2018

PDF version

Pierre: I don't know why it says it is superseded.

Nigel: An update was agreed in October.

Pierre: That's fascinating! Who knew...

Cyril: They talk about Ruby, vertical writing.
... https://www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/rep/R-REP-BT.2342-1-2018-PDF-E.pdf

Pierre: When are the submissions due?

Nigel: I think March or April

Andreas: I can also check on the process, I think an ITU colleague is handling the study group where this is handled.

Pierre: This group could come up with a submission that would inspire individual bodies to make a submission.

Nigel: I don't think we need the same submission from multiple national bodies.

Pierre: If you want to take a first stab I am happy to review it, regardless of who submits it.

Nigel: Okay, great, thank you.
... I've been asked to prepare effectively a redline version of the document, and the UK national body submitter has
... offered to write the submission boilerplate text to get it accepted.
... I'll take you up on your offer Pierre, I will probably work on this in January.

Pierre: I'm happy to contribute in the spirit of getting the right information published.

Glenn: I notice that ARIB is featured very prominently so that gives me a hint it is coming out of ARIB. It is dated
... April 2018 so it preceded quite a bit of our work to drive towards Rec on TTML2. It also mentioned that TTML2 was
... being worked on, so it is dated there.

Nigel: Thanks all, that's really useful. Any further information would be welcome.

Meeting close

Nigel: Thanks everyone, we've completed our agenda for today.
... A final word to wish you all an enjoyable break from these meetings, however you spend it, and recall that we've had
... an amazingly productive year in 2018, publishing 4 Recommendations, 3 of them on the same day! It's a great
... reflection of the hard work everyone has put in.
... So thank you!
... See you next year. [adjourns meeting]

Andreas: Thank you Nigel, best wishes.

Pierre: Best wishes for the holidays and the new year.

Cyril: Best wishes. Bye!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log) then
manually converted to markdown by hand by @nigelmegitt
Date: 2018/12/20 16:51:39
Modified 2018/12/21 17:15