[Feature Request] Reducing/nerfing the reliability of Joystick Emulation for selected Multiplayer games

[AL2009man]

based on a conversation over at Gyro Gaming subreddit: i've been told that DS4Windows is considered to be a cheating software due to the specific amount of options that enables players of abusing the game's Aim Assist system, even tho: DS4Windows wasn't intented for cheat software, but it's now considered to be a "tainted software".

given it's a contentions issue at hand, I wanna have a conversation: do you think Joystick Emulation should be nerfed to be less prone for cheating abuse?

my best-case solution would be to provide either a strong warning, or intentionally whitelisting specific multiplayer-based game.

[Ryochan7]

Is this bait?

Being an open source program, there is not much of a point to stripping out features as someone can just add them back in. I would not expect game developers to whitelist specific approved binary builds. I use Gyro to Joystick Emulation a fair amount so I would probably be considered a cheater. Also, I had wanted to remove the macro system from DS4Windows when I was still working on it and I got major backlash over it.

People on YouTube have even tried to cancel Steam Input because of the activator system. Of course, Valve is going to get a pass so there is likely no worry about SI support being turned off for certain games.

[AL2009man]

Is this bait?

no. If i was bait, I would've found a way to make a My Dress Up Darling season 2 reference.

joking aside: I want to fix a "DS4Windows is a cheating software" image problem based on a convo on Gyro Gaming discord server, where one of the users insists on "DS4Windows is tainted" because "cheating abuse"....even tho it's Open Source and things operates differently, but i keep getting pushbacks for unfortunate reason.

the reason why I created this thread is because i got tired of that stupid convo, also: with the advent of reWASD's situation (which in this case: they unironically supported cheating, when they say "no we don't").

So, I want a feedback straight from the current maintainer and others.

I can answer the rest of your questions:

Being an open source program, there is not much of a point to stripping out features as someone can just add them back in.

which is up to the current maintainer to merge the PR or not. Otherwise: they can stay in their fork-land.

Also, I had wanted to remove the macro system from DS4Windows when I was still working on it and I got major backlash over it.

my personal opinion is this: force them to look at the reWASD vs The Finals cheating scandal situation and point out that there's gonna be a point where DS4Windows will be affected by this, and innocent users who just want it to get it working on Steam Controller 2016 without the use of Steam Input will be caught in the crossfire (it did happen to someone recently!)

then ask them this:

do you want to get caught in the crossfire or do you want DS4Windows to have a healthy community where DS4Windows' intended purpose is to get PlayStation controllers to work on any game that has XInput support?

People on YouTube have even tried to cancel Steam Input because of the activator system. Of course, Valve is going to get a pass so there is likely no worry about SI support being turned off for certain games.

probably because, the activator (and cheating-based) macros system isn't that powerful compared to others on the market, I do know one of the Valve developers is "careful "on stuffs that can be abused.

and trust me: I tried to do the cheating macro/activators setup, but it's too janky to make it work. You better off do straight Gyro to Joystick (btw "As Joystick" for Gyro has been replaced in that new Steam Client beta)

[Ryochan7]

Having a "lite" version for simple remapping support would probably have been fine. I play a lot of KB+M games with a controller so I used a lot of the extra features and DS4Windows was still a bit limiting for some games compared to antimicro; only single actions per button and no Action Set support were two major limiting factors.

I would think that the builds for a lite version would have to be trusted which likely means they would have to be digitally signed.

[DAOWAce]

joking aside: I want to fix a "DS4Windows is a cheating software" image problem based on a convo on Gyro Gaming discord server, where one of the users insists on "DS4Windows is tainted" because "cheating abuse"....even tho it's Open Source and things operates differently, but i keep getting pushbacks for unfortunate reason.

I think they're problem and have to accept reality.

Many years ago when ultrawide monitors were first hitting the market, there were people, including staff at companies (hi Blizzard) that said ultrawide was "cheating" because of the extra FoV it gave you in properly scaled Hor+ games. As a result, some games never implemented ultrawide support, or even went out of their way to make sure it couldn't be implemented (Starcraft & anticheat), or intentionally did it so ultrawide users had a disadvantage (Overwatch).

This still continues to this day.

No amount of telling people how stupid the argument is gets things to change. The same thing happened back with widescreen monitors (16:10 and 16:9) as they had a FoV advantage over 4:3, which also had an advantage over 5:4... We can go on arguing about 'gaming' hardware and HFR monitors giving advantages too. It's pointless, and based on a stupid foundation.

The end result is that people who have the mentality of the person you're mentioning end up simply doing harm to legitimate users. Akin to the "this is why we can't have nice things" phrase.

[Ryochan7]

Working on controller mapper programs was my main form of escapism for many years. Back with the start of antimicro, the initial goal then was to play Mass Effect 1 (Classic) in Wine with an Xbox 360 controller. With DS4Windows, the main goal was to minimize perceived controller emulation latency as much as possible; although, I later got into playing KBM controlled games like Fallout: New Vegas using DS4Windows.

This whole fake cheating software scandal really sucked a lot of the fun out of this for me. I tried to fight against it but it ruined the public perception of DS4Windows and even my small reputation as a developer. It does not help that other mapper software that can perform the same mapping actions can get a pass. Back then, reWASD was still considered fine (and promoted by influencers) until the clickbait mouse to fake RS scandal; I have tried it and it is pretty terrible. This whole debacle has been far less about trying to level the playing field in online games and more about getting views and money on YouTube and TikTok at the expense of others.

[Ryochan7]

This is now a venting thread. Recently in the Gyro Gaming Discord, there were people having a discussion about all Gyro to Joystick mapping being considered cheating. They even went to the point of advocating for controller emulation being removed from JoyShockMapper entirely and calling ViGEmBus shady for existing. Personally, I would think macro abuse would be more prominent with KB emulation than gamepad emulation but people are only focused on Aim Assist on a not ideal control scheme.

In my experience, I have used Gyro to Joystick mapping in several games and view it as a useful feature. Here is a small sample of games where I have used that binding in profiles.

1. Halo: Master Chief Collection
2. Alice: Madness Returns
3. Euro Truck Simulator / American Truck Simulator
4. Resident Evil 4 (2005)
5. Bulletstorm

Games with no mixed input support (Halo: MCC) or meant to be played with a gamepad (Alice) can be better off mapping fully to a virtual controller rather than virtual KBM. Resident Evil 4 profile utilized gyro for over shoulder aim mode only; RE4 being an odd case that LS is used to control aim normally. IIRC, RE4 has some odd behavior for the mouse in general so the game is better played using a gamepad.

The whole idea at the start was to see how close I could make Gyro to Joystick function like it did in Steam Input at the time. That feature was added around the time Halo: MCC was first released on PC and I got into playing Halo Reach (forgot Reach was released first). I really enjoyed it and I felt that I got Gyro to Joystick to work better (for me) in DS4Windows than I could get it working with Steam Input even with config tweaks.

Having people later decide to dog-pile and cancel me for wanting to have fun and call me a cheater and scammer made me more bitter. I do not play online games with randoms. Single player and co-op with friends is what matters to me.

[Ryochan7]

Learning that such a toxic group is still active and actually thriving disgusts me.

[AL2009man]

Learning that such a toxic group is still active and actually thriving disgusts me.

If you're talking about Gyro Gaming discord server: it's actually two people who I pushed back against (as they're the ones who actually wishes JoyShockMapper to not include ViGEm in the first place) and have disagreements to, and I know exactly what you're referring to.

But I assure you: we're not THAT toxic, (In fact: one of the head mod did give some sympathy to ryochan and wishes theres things were better) trust me.

edit: but if ya referring to bad actors who grab DS4Windows' name thru the mug (which is why I wanted to restore the name to it's former glory), then nevermind what I say